Something New Emerges – but can too much data change the story?

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In this episode of The Team Coaching Journey – Where Teams Come Alive, Georgina and Allard continue their work with the executive team at Acme Inc. Following the engagement session, they move into the discovery phase of the coaching journey—gathering additional data, conducting interviews, and making sense of what they're learning about the team and the wider system.

As new information emerges, so do new questions. Georgina and Allard reflect on the tension between gathering data and taking action, exploring how easy it can be to become attached to finding the "right" diagnosis before moving forward. Along the way, they uncover fresh insights about the team's dynamics, consider how change unfolds over time, and discuss what it means to coach a team when the picture is constantly evolving.

You'll discover:

• Why team coaching is rarely a linear process.
• How new data can challenge initial assumptions about a team.
• The benefits—and potential pitfalls—of extensive discovery and diagnostics.
• Why meaningful team transformation happens over a series of interventions, not a single session.
• How coaches make sense of emerging patterns while staying open to what comes next.

This episode offers an honest look at the complexity of the discovery phase and the reality that every answer often leads to new questions. As the coaching journey unfolds, Georgina and Allard invite listeners behind the scenes to explore how teams—and coaches—learn to work with uncertainty, emergence, and change.

Brought to you by Team Coaching Studio - The world’s leading academy for team coaching. To find out more about us visit https://teamcoachingstudio.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Teams Transformed, the podcast for people who want to see real team transformation.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

For courageous coaches, curious leaders, and anyone passionate about unlocking the true power of Teams.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

We your hosts, Georgina and Alard. Here to journey with you through transformational insights on how to coach teams with presence, depth, and emergence.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Let's explore not just the tools but the art of transforming teams. In this episode, we continue our work with the executive leadership team of ACME Inc. After the initial meetings and after the team engagement session, we were contracted to do a bit of discovery work. And don't you know it? During the discovery work, new findings emerge, new data about the team. Georgina and I try to make sense of these new findings, and we talk about how do we continue working with what emerges, whatever that is. Along the way, we touch upon the dark side of our obsession with gathering data. So sit back, relax, and enjoy listening to Georgina and myself struggle through this phase of the team coaching journey. Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode three of this series that we've entitled The Team Coaching Journey where Teams Come Alive. We've uh titled this episode, Something New Emerges. Never a Dull Day. Never a Dull Day could have been another title. And uh it'll become clear to you why why we've given it this title in just a few minutes. So remember, uh team coaching is rarely a one-off session. Change takes time, transformation takes time. So there's different stages that we journey through, and there's different interventions. And what we're trying to do in this series is to give you a good idea of what that might look like. So we're not necessarily describing the team coaching journey, but uh but we are describing a team coaching journey, and we're taking you alongside us. And if you um remember in episode one, uh it all began with some initial meetings and some initial contracting with Sarah, head of HR over at ECME Corporation, which is a composite of different clients that we've worked with, but that we're treating as if it were a real client for this uh for the sake of this series. Sarah then gave us the green light for a team engagement session uh with the actual team and the CEO in episode two of this series, and that was a few weeks ago. And as a result of that uh that team engagement session, uh, we were given the green light to do a bit of discovery work, and we submitted our proposal, which was accepted by the way. Yay! Congratulations to us. And um we ran a um re ran an assessment which we call the Team Selfie, the Team Selfie, I'm sorry, uh the purpose of which is to generate a bit of uh awareness, which is of course the precursor to any change. And we had an opportunity to sit down with the CEO. So a lot has happened since uh we since we spoke in episode two. And so today, Georgina and I are going to be debriefing um these last few weeks. We're gonna be debriefing the team selfie, um, the results that we just got back. We're gonna be debriefing our um our impressions after our meeting with the CEO. And we're of course we're gonna be celebrating the fact that our proposal was accepted, which is always great news. And then um after our debrief, we'll come back to you and um and share some of our insights and uh and and and some of the things that we think are are important for you as potential takeaways from today's conversation. Hi, George.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Hi, Al. Thanks for that framing. That was really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I noticed I just sighed as I as I said hello to you. A lot has happened. We've been busy.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

We've been so am I tiring you out?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

No, really. Anything in that in the sigh?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

No, I think it is. Wow, a lot has happened. And um, and you know, and we've called we've called this episode something new emerges. And um, and and it was smooth sailing, wasn't it, through the initial meetings with Sarah? Yeah. And then it was it was it was smooth sailing, I want to say, you know, throughout that team engagement session, even though it was it turned out to be 75 minutes long instead of 90, and we felt a bit hurried and uh smooth sailing um as we we drafted a proposal, submitted it, and um and is and and it was accepted.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

And then but a lot has happened now since episode two of this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yeah, we met first with the chief exec, uh, whilst in the background uh team selfie diagnostic was uh you know, team members were completing that, uh including the chief exec, everyone completed that, and when we got the data back from that afterwards. So um, so first of all, I know it's it's um two and a half weeks ago now, but remember back to that um hour-long meeting with the chief executive. Yeah. Uh what what stood out for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Um it was nice to have this time with John, the CEO, um just as a uh in a one-on-one kind of setting. So you know, without without having the whole team surround him. And I noticed that it um it gave him permission somehow to open up more deeply than he did in the team engagement session.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Um I think he shared a lot Yeah, and kind of stepped out of his I'm the CEO around here, you know, energy. Uh he shared a lot of doubts and concerns. And then of course he did the um well, here's what you need to know about each of the different, you know, the the eight different members of our team, and this is what this is what they're good at, and this is their developmental journey the way I see it. And so he had clear, clear opinions about each and every one on on that um on that team.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yes, and I know there's one team member that uh he seemed quite um concerned about and was unsure whether they were really had what it takes to um to be the kind of team they need to be, yeah, or whether that team would be holding the team back, um, which was interesting because I didn't get a sense of that at all when we were in the room together in the engagement session. So uh I'm realizing now as we talk that that was you know that was new, that that had been invisible before.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah. So that's a yeah, that's a new a new figure that emerges. One of many.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

One of many. Hey, the other thing that stood out for me is I'm curious how it felt for you when you left the conversation with the chief exec. But I I found him in the team engagement session to be very passionate and energized and evangelistic about the organization. And in the one-to-one, I really felt confused and unclear, uh, especially around you know, what what is the work of the team? And uh um how does he what does he see the role is of the executive team in the organization? And uh that seemed really unclear.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

That did seem unclear. And I almost felt that he was distancing himself from the team a little bit and from that, and therefore he was distancing himself from that lack of clarity. There was the the vibe that I got from him was um, yeah, there's you know, it things may not be as clear as they as they are, especially for the team. So can you please go fix this team and then give them back to me completely fixed? Um it was maybe it had to do with the fact how he described you know, how he he described people out there. Not people, it wasn't a description of the team, it was he was describing people out there, and I felt that he was taking a bit of a back seat, almost uh to the point of um of signaling um that he might not be participating in all of the different team coaching sessions, um, but that we would be, of course, with the rest of with the rest of the team, and then somehow fix the team for him.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, fix the team for me and give give it back.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. While while I take a back seat.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

So there's there's a couple of figures there. One is that I felt he was um or I was confused, maybe he wasn't clear on really what what is the purpose of the of the executive team? What's the work or added value that they bring as a team? And what and what are the goals of the team? And you know, without without that, um I find, you know, my in my experience, then team members naturally try to add value by focusing on the departments or functions they lead. So um team meetings do tend to become report-ins of individual departments and functions uh without that real compelling sense of what we're working on together. So that that strikes me. And then the second one is this back seat. And um, I feel strongly that um the chief exec needs to be needs to be fully in the coaching sessions. Otherwise, it's uh I suppose a crude metaphor, it's like a bicycle, a bicycle that has handlebars and rather than the uh a unicycle that doesn't, you know, one with and that's so the chief exec is the handlebars, the um helping the the the team to steer in in the the most important direction they're going in. And I I I think it would um really hinder the team coaching if the chief exec isn't there and playing his role in the team, the team coaching. So it's something there that we need to watch for.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah. I came back from that meeting with the chief exec feeling slightly less upbeat than I did after the engagement session.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Slightly more flat and a bit in my head.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. And and and I think that m partly maybe due to the fact that all of a sud all of a sudden you and I are sitting, you and I are holding a lot of data.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Good point.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

That that may that you and I are sitting with, but that may not necessarily be shared amongst all of the different team members.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

And I I want to get to this in just a second, you know, because we that there's a couple of things that I want to talk to you about um with regards to the team selfie assessment. Uh so we we because we this discovery phase is is all about gathering more data, right? And and it's not it's not just about an assessment or it's not just about one conversation with the CEO. It's about everything that's happening and everything that we're picking up on and everything that we're learning. We're we're literally discovering more and more about the team. And and I think at this point we're like a step ahead with respect to the team. You know, team selfie is a it's a it's a really complete tool. It looks at does the team have you know a clear vision and direction? Um does the st does the team believe in its leadership? Um does the team is the team clear about its roles and responsibilities? Uh does the team have access to the right structures and resources? Um what how about the communication between the team members, the relationships between the team members, and and and then of course how you know how how is the team interacting with its with the larger system? And but that's just one small piece of the discovery, uh, of the discovery work. And um, and and by the way, I wish we had had time for some one-on-one interviews with the different team members and not just the one-on-one with the CEO, because I think that that's often a big part of this ongoing discovery work too. But so over and beyond what you've just described landed with you as a result of having sp spent some more time with, you know, one-on-one time with with John. There's a few things on the team selfie that I've just summarized real quick that concern me.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yes. So so share with me what what stands out for you from the selfie?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Well, first of all, that uh John is not seen as trustworthy and credible as he thinks he is. And and yeah, and that is shared by that's not just one or two people uh on the team that mention that, but that that comes back consistently from all eight. You know, there's that question around the leader is seen as trustworthy and credible, and that comes back, that came back at a one, a one out of five, I should say.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

I mean, that's so there's a real disconnect there. Um and then there's that other disconnect to be, you know, about uh like you that that you that you um spotted about about vision and direction, that about the team goals being clear and compelling. And John seems to think that the team goals are compelling and clear, but the team certainly doesn't share that. And and and and there's and then there was one more real red flag for me with in in in in the responses that we got, which is that um there's something around differences and conflicts not being managed at all. Differences and conflicts are not resolved openly and constructively. That was another like zero, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, really interesting. So we've got um a difference in perception about how John is experienced as a leader, not seen as trustworthy and credible. We don't really know what that's about, but that that it's just that that data point that the vision and team goals are not clear, yeah, because John thinks they're very clear, and the differences and conflicts are are not resolved openly and constructively, yeah. Um, which which really makes sense. And actually, now we're talking about that. You know what I was saying about in the one-to-one with the Chief Exec, and the Chief Exec giving you the um the sense that he might not even attend some of the team coaching sessions. And now that we said it out loud, neither of us commented on that uh in that session with John. So perhaps we've fallen a bit into some kind of parallel process where um, you know, we we would see it differently. We'd see it that that uh John does need to come to those team coaching sessions. Um but somehow we've fallen into a pattern that's there, possibly in the system. So we'll need to watch for that and role model our capacity to name differences and um to work through conflict, especially when it's a different perception to the team leader, to John. That's new, that's an important point.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, so to to me it speaks to the to the importance of uh this phase in the team coaching journey, this discovery phase. But it and and it also shows to the to the difficulty of it. Because once you start digging for data, yeah, um, you never know, you never life is like a box of chocolates, right? So was the phrase. And so so we've got quite so all of a sudden you and I are sitting with a box of chocolates.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yes, well, yeah. You said you wish we'd been able to do one-to-one interviews uh with team members beforehand. And I know that's something in the past I've I've often done, and repeatedly my experience is that I generate too much data that I am then holding as the coach.

unknown 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

All that's said in the one-to-one, all that's said in the diagnostic, the selfie diagnostic. And it's like I then feel that I've got to do something with all this data.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

So um, I don't think we've talked about this actually, because it's it, you know, I've made a change in in lately in how I've been doing this, which is um I do like one-to-ones with team members, and I suggest we do those as soon as possible. I like them less about gathering data and discovery, more about making relationship and contact with each team member and building those bonds of trust and openness, starting to get a sense of um what's more visible on a one-to-one basis with a team member than is when they're in the whole team. And um and then at a later stage, what we could do is get team members to interview each other about the team. So they're gathering the data at that level around where the team's really effective and where there's opportunities for growth. So I'm running ahead a bit into some ideas really about the design for a team launch, the next point of contact we have with them.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah.

unknown 18:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

No, no, no, that's absolutely fine. Um and we need to we need to think ahead because that that really is is the is the next phase in the way we conceive of the work and in the way we outlined it. We outlined it in our in our in our proposal. It's like um we've got to organize a bit of a team launch or a team relaunch, maybe in this particular instance of it. Um but meanwhile, we are we are sitting, you and I are sitting with with on a lot of data. We're sitting with a lot of data. And so how do we how do we deal with that? You know, how how do we debrief all of this data without showing up as the, and we we've hinted at this before, how do we how do we show up not as two experts, you know, with these white lab coats on, like doctors would, you know, with uh with the team selfie results, exactly with the clipboard in our hand, going, okay, we know what's going on, we've diagnosed this team, and um, we know exactly what's wrong. And so this is a you know, this is this is what the next the next three months are gonna look like because this is what we're gonna be working on. Um I'd I I don't I don't want to I don't want to be seen as the expert in the wide lab coat. But but I'm not sure exactly yet on how we debrief all this because you know a lot a lot of new figures have emerged.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah. Well, I I have a few ideas. Um can I share those and then and then you could build on those ideas.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah, so so I think there's something in how we set this up for the next session to say uh we could send them the selfie data in advance, we could ask them to read through it, we could frame it um in a covering note to them that says um this isn't a normative model, this isn't telling them how they should be. The whole purpose is to generate awareness around what's important and relevant to them. And that the ask is they really think about their context and they think deeply about what the meaning is in here and how might this help them to express uh and bring into awareness some opportunities for growth for the team. So I think there's something about how we position it and how we invite them to make sense of it so they come to the session already with some thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

No, I I really I like that idea because we're not making more out of it than than it is. It I mean, it's the these are the answers that you gave to uh you know to to to a list of questions at one point in time. And so we're really just holding up the mirror and saying this is this is exactly what you said. And it's not the it's not the end all. It's um um we're we're we're sharing this data with you because you took the time to respond to to a series of questions. Um but and and um and we're happy that some of these things came to you know c come to are coming to light. And we need to talk more about what what the possible agenda for the is for the work that lies ahead. So I want to make it very clear if we do that, that it's not this is not this is not us saying what good looks like. This is not us saying um what's wrong with you or what's right with you. It's it's merely one step in the process of generating some awareness of what's happening within this within this team.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Nice. Yeah I think it's really important to get that role that get that framing right about what the invitation is. And it's also in our presence how we show up in the in the launch um that we're not showing up with the the white lab coat on and the clip chart that we're really uh inviting them to take a a step up and in and to own this data.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah. And then and then for for for for you and I I think all of this data is something to keep in the back of our minds but not to not necessarily at this point to make it the focus the content of the conversations of the next few conversations that lay ahead. Because the con there's so I I think what I'm getting to is this is this difference between content and process.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

So we want to say a bit more about that.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Well I think what's going to be more revealing than any than any data or you know any answers to questions on whatever assessment or or what's even going to be more revealing than um than a summary of the conversation we had with John or summaries of conversations we might have had or would have had with different team members. What's really going to matter to me is how how is the team interacting in the here and now when we are together with them because to me that's where the real warm data is. And so we can use we can use all this as starting points for a team launch you know or bring it into a potential team launch conversation and going this is what you've this is what you've been telling us and and all right and we've heard you and as you've indicated we can ask you these seem these same questions again at the end of our intervention our work together now let's have a conversation about that but then as we're having that conversation not focus too much on the content of that conversation but much more about the process the way in which they're having that conversation nice well I I have a build on that as an idea how about um somewhere in the in the in the launch session when we're together in the room we step out of the circle so uh we invite them to make sense to to have a dialogue about team selfie and then and any gems or insights in there and you and I step out and we can be observing the process and we could contract for them around this that we that we share with them a few observations after.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

And of course it'd be fascinating if our observations if what we notice have any connection to what they talk about.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

But that way we can bring both the content and the process into their awareness and and make it very here and now and we and we agree you and I that John has to be there right yeah this this session will not take place without John be so figural really important.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Now that you've brought John into our conversation um what are your thoughts on anything we might need to do um beforehand given that John's leadership is um you know i he's talked about as not being seen as trustworthy incredible in in team selfie I could imagine that would it's quite difficult for a leader to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

I I think we need I I think we need another another session with John you or me it doesn't have to be the three of us yes but where we give him we give him a a bit of a heads up on what we've discovered so far or again without positioning it as the truth but just as this is this is what's you know this is something that's alive in the team right now. Nice and it's gonna and it's gonna come up in our next conversation.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

And let it not be an excuse you know to not attend yes and that um help him think through how he um wants to show up in in the launch session given what he's read in the data and so give him space to think through that how he wants to show up.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

This is why I'm always so much in two minds about all this this discovery work. It's like on the one hand it's great to know some of these things and on the other hand it's like wow now what do we how do we deal with all this and yeah how do we not alienate anybody especially not the team leader. How do we not generate too much resistance at this stage and start to build a container yeah especially because the team is indicating that they're just not they're not well they don't feel well equipped to deal with differences and conflicts at this at this stage whether they be facts or feelings they don't seem to have a real norm about how to how to resolve all that so yes so this is a real opportunity in terms of how John shows up and responds.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah and um you know Al I I noticed in our one-to-one with John uh he seemed to respond very warmly to you and to your way of being and there's a you know gentleness to you um it seems to me your way of being is a great role model for him in in a way of accessing perhaps more of the of uh feelings and being a man who who can be open to growth and development so how about you have that conversation with him one-on-one so it's not a two-on-one.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so he doesn't feel that we're ganging up on him or yeah or yeah or lecturing him.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah and I hope that he feels a sense of hope and potential and uh perhaps it's developmental for him in terms of how how he can show up. Yeah great well we have a bit of a plan we know we need to talk a little bit more about um what we want to focus on in our team launch yeah but I think that's probably enough enough for now for today.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So for the listener yeah yes for the listener it just yes yeah it just it just goes to show I think you know the the difficulty of sitting on lots of data and then how do you make sense of that and how do you deal with it how do you debrief it how do you share it and and then how do you use it to fashion a clear idea of uh at least at this stage of what the the work is the work in capital letters and therefore how do you approach how do you even start to design uh a a team launch it's a really good point I mean one of the reasons that I have moved away from using diagnostics is that I often found that when sharing the results for the team with a team the team were rather disassociated and um talking a bit abstractly about the diagnostic or defending the diagnostic even though it's their responses. I've found it can generate a lot of resistance um so I think there's real skill in how we bring in any form of diagnostic and make use of it but also how a team responds to the diagnostic is part of the what is part of the unfolding awareness of the system and how it responds to data to pressure to feedback to awareness and so it could be very uh you know it's very enlightening in that sense and informative about how we might go forward and so yes yeah so one way or another this this what is will emerge and there's not one there's not one right tool or there's not a best tool um to facilitate that that uh that process so I'm I I noticed that I'm sitting here hoping at the end of this of the recording of this episode that we've that through our dialogue you know we're making it clear that there's pros and cons to doing discovery work and that there's a real uh risk I think of generating too much data. Yes at the at this at this point of the at this point of the engagement.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

At this point yeah yeah so there's a couple more things I'd just like to to say is that a discovery phase is not equivalent to doing a team diagnostic you can still do discovery without doing any team assessment at all um have conversations with people doesn't even have to be formal interviews have conversations with people go into the organization's offices chat with people see what it feels like to be in the organization see what's published about the organization and team and what's in their context what are some of the the ecological forces around the team that are uh you know is is the organization going through some kind of remerger or um restructure have they had a lot of change in chief execs you know what what's what what else is uh what other data is out there um and also another way is through through bringing it into the here and now now in this in this example with uh acme's executive team we've chosen to do team selfie it it because it was meeting the team where they're at in their worldview which is a diagnostic worldview and equally we could do it by um just inviting them to talk about what what the best possible version of themselves would be like with us observing them in action and seeing what data comes out what observations what do we notice about the dance you know if we were on the balcony what do we notice about the quality of their contact and conversations with each other um so that there's so much data in the room already if we just you know open our eyes and our hearts to take it in non-judgmentally to see what's there.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

The content is always in the room isn't it the content is right under our eyes.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

And as you've said before the team is the content.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

The team is the content yeah a model or a frame the team is the content yeah all right so everyone thank you for um being here today thanks for listening um give us a couple of weeks while Georgina and I figure out how we want to approach the team launch how we want to design the team launch uh with um and run the team launch with ACME and then uh we'll get back to you and continue our ongoing debrief um hopefully uh teaching you a few things about a team coaching journey along the way and we'd love to hear your thoughts and comments on where you'd go from here and what you're noticing with this team and with us. See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

See you soon Thanks for joining today's journey of Teams Transformed if this sparked a new insight or a deeper question we invite you to sit with it not to solve it but to let it unfold. For resources community and reflection prompts visit teamcoachingstudio.com until the next time stay present stay curious and keep leaning into the art of emergence